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Post by relmy on Feb 9, 2012 10:52:38 GMT -4
Eek, yeah, I remember the whole LIVE FIGHTER outfit being a bit of a touchy issue with some people when it happened. But let's be honest, she's far from the only J-pop singer to use Army-esque/Nazi-esque fashion in their outfits. From what I've read of Japan, the Holocaust isn't something that's given a lot of emphasis in their education. Considering what Japan did in WW2, I find the fashionisation (made up word there) of Nazi imagery unbelievably awkward. Of course I understand the cultural differences, but still... it really rubs me the wrong way. If you have a message or story (that obviously isn't pro-Nazi), then go for it. It's interesting, and if it's done well, is a huge credit to the artist for being able to make such an emotive issue into a statement. Just for fashion because it looks good? No thank you. This had nothing to do with Nana lol |
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Post by Sai on Feb 10, 2012 3:25:16 GMT -4
^ Oh it's definitely awkward, there's no doubt about that :^^; The Mysterion PV is another instance of it, actually.
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Post by replaymachine on Feb 10, 2012 4:25:27 GMT -4
I dunno, I like the song but the live falls a bit short for me. Wait, what's wrong with Heartcatch paradise? It's cuute plus she sang churupaya in that pink costume  Sexy Nana doesn't always fail, though I think her kind of "sexy" is more like being a classy, sophisticated lady showing a bit of skin than just revealing your body for all the world to see :gush And about the Nazi-like costume. I actually don't mind it but the musterion pv kinda made go "ooooh" >_> |
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Post by relmy on Feb 10, 2012 10:21:03 GMT -4
^ Oh it's definitely awkward, there's no doubt about that :^^; The Mysterion PV is another instance of it, actually. I think we all discussed it then too, didn't we? Mysterion is odd, it falls in that weird category of... they used it for fashion but then tried to add in some sort of anti message in... but kinda didn't really. Mysterion was far worse than the live performance, her logo in the flag was definitely meant to resemble a swastika. |
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haksaw
«5» Secret Ambition
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Post by haksaw on Feb 10, 2012 15:12:19 GMT -4
At times, when showing a bit of skin by sophisticated ladies considered attractive, word "sexy" simply didn't exist. You know that it comes from sex, right? So being "sexy" is actually to show that you are good for sex. Nothing more. Nowdays this quite primitive process regrettably became the main selling point of a woman... This leads to quite a few disappointing consequences, at least for me, but I won't discuss them now (unless you're interested, of course). It's especially fun, that some women don't even understand it. - Why does he treat me like a slut?! - You do know I can see you pants, right? - So what? It's modern fashion! Yesss, riiiiight... Aaaand? What's wrong about it? First of all I feel sorry for swastika - symbol, which existed for more than 3000 years instantly turned into something no one should even talk about, let alone paint somewhere... Poor, poor swastika  Secondly Third Reich is a history. Nothing more. Nationalistic ideas of different kinds (nationalism in general is not actually a bad thing) existed long before it and will exist till the dawn of mankind. So calling every braindead nationalist a nazi is incorrect, since nazi had quite certain ideology nationalism being just a part of it and many of other parts were actually quite nice. But as usual people remember only bad things so Third Reich turned into empire of evil and Hitler into crazy maniac. So be it and take all the nazi cosplay as generic "empire of evil" thing, just like those cosplayers actually think. But if you want to blame people for "propagandizing bad guys" then you'll have to dig deeper in this and see how bad those "bad guys" were and how good was "good guys" and that's where things get complicated... |
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Post by relmy on Feb 10, 2012 19:42:26 GMT -4
First of all I feel sorry for swastika - symbol, which existed for more than 3000 years instantly turned into something no one should even talk about, let alone paint somewhere... Poor, poor swastika Secondly Third Reich is a history. Nothing more. Nationalistic ideas of different kinds (nationalism in general is not actually a bad thing) existed long before it and will exist till the dawn of mankind. So calling every braindead nationalist a nazi is incorrect, since nazi had quite certain ideology nationalism being just a part of it and many of other parts were actually quite nice. But as usual people remember only bad things so Third Reich turned into empire of evil and Hitler into crazy maniac. So be it and take all the nazi cosplay as generic "empire of evil" thing, just like those cosplayers actually think. But if you want to blame people for "propagandizing bad guys" then you'll have to dig deeper in this and see how bad those "bad guys" were and how good was "good guys" and that's where things get complicated... MASSIVE HISTORY RANT IN SPOILER.
Where do I even start...
Firstly, nationalism is not an age old concept. Nationalism didn't emerge until the years after the American and French Revolutions. People simply didn't have the idea of a "nation". People felt more allegiance to the Catholic Church or their local government officer than to their country - there are minor exceptions, of course, but it is nothing like nationalism. For example - Italy, the main problems with trying to unite the country was that people didn't care about anything beyond their small village - how could they unite with people under a leader miles away? Unification Germany faced similar issues.
Nazism is extreme nationalism. Nazi is an off-shoot based on Italian Fascism. Like Italy, it took nationalism to the next level by combining with elements of dictatorship, exclusion and totalitarianism. It was no longer about a national anthem, shared language or allegiance to a ruler. When people are activley killed in the name of the nation because they do not fit the ideal, you move beyond nationalism. The result of this? 50 years of writing where nationalism is a taboo, it's not so much the case anymore in historical writing, but there is a clear difference between "nationalism" -19th century usage and "nationalism" - 20th century usage and "patriotism".
Nationalism isn't used to make the Third Reich seem bad, it's used as something to understand WHY the Third Reich committed the horrors it did. People don't just remember the "bad" parts of Nazism. It's just that people know the "good" bits, like the restoration of the economy and road building, were done with the "bad" aims in mind. The bad aims? A war based on an ideology that was built on eugenics, exclusion and totalitarianism. This was Hitler's ideology, the Third Reich was the empire he wanted to build based on that ideology. The three can't be separated.
People don't have a problem with a Swastika if it is used in it's original context - as an ancient religious symbol. In Nana's video though it is distinctly evoking Nazi imagery. When a regime killed millions of people, obviously there is going to be emotive reaction if the symbol of the ideology that committed the atrocity is used for "fashion". There are still Neo-Nazi's. There are STILL people who use the Swastika to promote racial ideals.
It's not as simple as them being the "bad guys", Nazism was a regime that used totalitarian methods to commit racial cleansing. It made everyday people believe that what they were doing was right.
Also, maybe I'm ignorant, but please point me out a "good" element of Nazi ideology that doesn't link back to their ideology based on eugenics. Loyalty to your country is NOT the same as nationalism.
Just history? I beg to differ. Something which has had such an impact on current mentality, and still has people alive who experienced it, it is far more than just history. The French Revolution itself is still not resigned to the vaults of "just history", we still don't fully know what the outcomes of liberty, equality and fraternity will result to. Hey, even the Crusades are unbelievably relevant to the modern world.
Rant over. :/ |
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haksaw
«5» Secret Ambition
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Post by haksaw on Feb 11, 2012 5:19:07 GMT -4
^_^ First I should say that I don't think that war is a bad thing. Many countries became what they are now in result of constant wars. That's perfectly normal. Especially I don't understand people living in those countries and shouting "Oh noes, war is killing! Make love not war! Bla-bla-bla". Maaan, your ancestors were dying and killing by thousands, if not millions, so you could simply open your mouth now, so pay some respect and think a little, will you? So now about Nazi. My main disagreement with Hitler's theory is he said that one nation is better than the others and therefore had the right given by the Nature itself to rule all others. I can't agree to this - many different nations had a chance to shine throughout the history and they did shine. But. I don't see a single bad thing in idea, that one nation should rule the world. Not because it's better, but just because it can. Why not? How is killing in the name of a nation is worse than killing in the name of a country? Or you want to say that killing itself is bad? Oh come on... If you have a power to conquer the world and don't do it - you're just a fool who betrayed the trust of your people. Economy restoration and roads? Yes, very typical of "people"... They only see what keeps their asses in warmth. Those were just stepping stones. The actual goals was well being of the people in all aspects of life. So the aims were good actually, as they always are (bad aims exist only in some comic books). It was the road that was bad. Again, bad for others, for Nazi it was ok. And why should they care about others really? They tried and they failed. But there won't be any progress with just theories without any deeds. Nor good, nor bad deeds - just deeds, since good and bad is just a point of view. They do. Simply because they don't know original context  And why was it wrong? You see, there's no such thing as universal right and wrong. If you believe something is right - it IS right. For you. If you have enough power to force your beliefs on others, it becomes right for others. Simple as that. In Germany of that time Hitler's ideology defeated all others meaning it was absolutely right at that point for those people. Now we have different time and different people, so it's "wrong" now. Who knows how things will be in 100-200 years. Pretty much all the usual social things like supporting of culture, religion, sport and so on and not only on words. But of course all of these were meant for Germans, so getting rid of "alien elements" was the main focus at the start and they never existed long enough to move on. That's the exact point. Stop bringing past in the present. We should learn history to project its events on the present and of course it is relevant. But we should never allow our judgments of present be affected by the past. There are just too many variables we don't know for that to be accurate. So neo-nazi will never create 4th reich - they are just a bunch of idiots. But another ideology may arise, very different in appearance and methods, yet so alike... And while chasing kids with swastika you may overlook it. |
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Post by amelala on Feb 11, 2012 8:40:48 GMT -4
ow....load of heavy info lol XD.....for me i dont mind it wherever is look-like nazi anot....since is not my prob to me, n past is past
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Post by nanapower on Feb 11, 2012 9:19:31 GMT -4
I don't think it is strange to Nana to do some mistakes or things like that . She is a human after all ^^  |
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Post by replaymachine on Feb 11, 2012 22:38:09 GMT -4
At times, when showing a bit of skin by sophisticated ladies considered attractive, word "sexy" simply didn't exist. You know that it comes from sex, right? So being "sexy" is actually to show that you are good for sex. Nothing more. Nowdays this quite primitive process regrettably became the main selling point of a woman... This leads to quite a few disappointing consequences, at least for me, but I won't discuss them now (unless you're interested, of course). It's especially fun, that some women don't even understand it. - Why does he treat me like a slut?! - You do know I can see you pants, right? - So what? It's modern fashion! Yesss, riiiiight... Wait what? So me finding Nana (sometimes) "sexy" means I find her good for sex which can also mean that I want to get it on with her? Ehhh gawds NO!  It's just mere admiration/attraction to other people's body for me lols ^^;; Just like how I find Ha Ji Won strutting her way in the carpet wearing a gown with her back showing annoyingly incredibly sexy. Though in context, saying sexy might cheapen their image but simply saying it's attractive or *insert other synonymous words* sounds not enough. Care to expand my english vocabulary? lols |
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Post by Unchain_Knight on Feb 11, 2012 23:51:32 GMT -4
At times, when showing a bit of skin by sophisticated ladies considered attractive, word "sexy" simply didn't exist. You know that it comes from sex, right? So being "sexy" is actually to show that you are good for sex. Nothing more. Nowdays this quite primitive process regrettably became the main selling point of a woman... This leads to quite a few disappointing consequences, at least for me, but I won't discuss them now (unless you're interested, of course). It's especially fun, that some women don't even understand it. - Why does he treat me like a slut?! - You do know I can see you pants, right? - So what? It's modern fashion! Yesss, riiiiight... Sorry but no .o I think you've got it backwards. Maybe the root of the word 'sexy' means 'good for sex' but in from a modern perspective so many things are considered sexy without being considered "good for sex"... The english language DOES evolve and nowadays 'good for sex' is NOT necessarily a characteristic of being 'sexy'... :uhh |
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Post by relmy on Feb 12, 2012 18:19:21 GMT -4
Yup, a woman can dress sexy if she wants, it doesn't mean she wants sex, and nobody should expect it.
No. no. no. no. I'm FAR from a feminist but this is wrong on so many levels. I'm not even going to go into it because it makes me so angry.
I've also been awake way too long, and I just... I'm just not going to even start a response on Nazi's because I don't feel like writing an essay.
How did this end up so... serious!?
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Post by Sai on Feb 12, 2012 19:49:03 GMT -4
^ Honestly. :^^; Then again - and I'm in no way admonishing this thread - with the topic at hand, it was bound to happen, I just wasn't expecting it to be in this particular way  Not that we're necessarily too far off-topic, but consider this a general reminder to everyone here to exercise care and tact when discussing inarguably touchy issues. I'm all for... spirited discussion, but in certain cases it might be best to steer the conversation elsewhere. |
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meikyuutie
«6» BRAVE PHOENIX
Call me Sereyna~!
Posts: 264
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Post by meikyuutie on Feb 13, 2012 5:53:33 GMT -4
Kyaaaa.... sexy canm means lots of things >_< loys of things are sexy n can be for different reasons... lol...
but sai-kuns right, back to nana!!!!!!
jhas she ever been part of any scandals??
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Post by relmy on Feb 13, 2012 7:33:22 GMT -4
There was this scandal among part of her fanbase where she didn't post what she was doing on New Years Eve(?) and people went crazy and thought she might have a boyfriend or something.
It wasn't a HUGE scandal (nobody but the really hardcore fans cared).
and one guy who wrote some of her lyrics got arrested as part of a drug scandal. The guy who wrote DISCOTHEQUE, it's why it's not on UD I believe.
It seems neither had any proper "scandal" affects.
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